In this special milestone episode, Mike Hrycyk sits down with Keith McIntosh (PLATO CEO and Co-Founder) and Denis Carignan (PLATO President and Co-Founder) to celebrate 10 years of Indigenous Software Tester Training. Together, they reflect on how the program began in Fredericton, New Brunswick, the vision behind its creation, and how it has grown into a national model for building Indigenous careers in technology. From early challenges and lessons learned to scaling workforce development across Canada, this conversation explores what it takes to create lasting impact in tech education.
The episode also features reflections from members of the very first cohort, Kevin Jerome, Keisha Nguyen, and Matt Amos, sharing how the training shaped their careers and perspectives over the past decade. As PLATO continues recruiting for a new cohort in 2026, this 10-year reflection, with real-world insight from the leaders and graduates who helped shape the journey, looks back at what’s been achieved and forward to the future of Indigenous talent in Canada’s technology sector.
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Episode Transcript
Mike Hrycyk (00:00):
Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of PLATO Panel Talks. I’m your host, Mike Hrycyk. This month, we’re doing something a little special. It’s been 10 years since we kicked off our first class of the Indigenous Software Testing Training Program in Fredericton, New Brunswick. There’s a lot of interesting memories to revisit and lessons to be learned along the way to talk about. I joined the PLATO team shortly before the first-ever cohort was released from the course to their internships, and it’s been such a meaningful part of my role with the team here in Vancouver. This spring, we’ll be launching our 38th course, and I think this is a good time to reflect and share where we’ve been and celebrate where we’re going in the future.
(00:36):
To do this, as we usually do, we have a panel with the integral founders of the program. I will ask them to introduce themselves in a moment. We are also going to share reflections from Kevin, Keisha, and Matt. Kevin and Keisha are graduates from the first course, and 10 years in, they are both continuing to grow their careers in tech here at PLATO and beyond. I can tell you that it’s been amazing watching and being a part of their journey. Matt Amos was the first Subject Matter Expert in the first course. He went on to help launch and teach many more classes across the country with PLATO. I’m excited for you to hear their reflections throughout the episode because I think they really help us to understand the ideas and vision that our panel had when they set out to create what PLATO and the Indigenous Software Testing Training Program would become. With that, let me hand it over to our panel to introduce themselves. Keith?
Keith McIntosh (01:24):
Hi, I’m Keith McIntosh. I’m the CEO and founder of PQA, which is the mother company of PLATO.
Mike Hrycyk (01:31):
Great. Thanks, Keith. Denis, can you tell us about yourself, please?
Denis Carignan (01:34):
Hello, and Tansi. I’m Denis Carignan. I’m a co-founder of the concept of PLATO. Been with the company for just under 10 years, and I’m talking today from the beautiful sunny province of Saskatchewan.
Mike Hrycyk (01:46):
Thanks for joining both. So, let’s start with an introduction to the audience of what inspired the creation of our Indigenous Software Testing Program, and what were you hoping to address at the time of its conception? Keith, we’ll start with you.
Keith McIntosh (02:00):
Sure. The idea of PLATO, I guess, has its genesis back in the summer or spring of 2015. Denis and I were lucky enough to be representing New Brunswick in the Governor General’s Canadian Leadership Conference. And I went away to that conference. It’s a conference that has no real goal, just to pull people together and see what happens. And in the middle of that, New Brunswick at the time was a province where there was not much work. People were leaving to go out to Alberta to work. But I was running a successful growing software testing company, PQA. And as I went to the conference, we were struggling to find workers. How are we going to grow a company in New Brunswick, in Canada and find enough workers? And Dani and I were on the tour of Quebec. Montreal and the Eastern Townships was our group. And this story has been told many times, I think, to a lot of people who’ve come through our company since then.
(02:53):
One night, we were at a fancy dinner in downtown Montreal. We’re eating dinner and drinking coffee in China, fine enough that you could see through it, essentially see through it so far. And the next day, we went across the river, the Kahnawake First Nation, and we drove in on a big fancy bus on reserve land to a K to 6 school teaching the Mohawk language. And little kids came running out to greet us. And there was this really bad smell. And we asked the teacher, “What’s the smell?” And she said, “The water’s not good.” We just had dinner the night before in downtown Montreal, one of the most beautiful cities in the world. And now here we are on the other side of the river, within sight of the skyline of Montreal, and the water isn’t fit to drink. And I asked Denis, because Denis was one of the leaders of our group, and he was a government employee, worked for Indigenous Affairs, Denis or something like that? Denis, why isn’t the government fixing this? And Denise said…
Denis Carignan (03:50):
Oh, I got a bit technical because I was in charge of the engineering program at the time, but part of it was that not everywhere has potable water in the ground. Sometimes you have to ship it in from elsewhere. But I think the bigger part of it was that there probably was a plan to connect the school to the municipal drinking water system at some point, but it’s usually a question of money.
Keith McIntosh (04:10):
So, there’s an answer, but it takes time. And I said, Denis, why can’t we give them work where they earn money and can do it without waiting for the government to do it? At that time, as I said, we couldn’t find enough people. In New Brunswick, the province’s demographic was aging. And yet there’s a whole lot of people in Canada right here that need work, that need opportunity. So I said, “Well, what if we just hire First Nations people and give them the work, and they’ll take care of themselves?” So, that was, I guess, the genesis, the founding idea of it. So, I came back to Fredericton after the conference, and that was in May of 2015. And I told our staff that we were going to hire First Nations people to work because there are a lot of First Nations people in New Brunswick. And that’s where the idea came from, right? We went from there. We built a training course. Denis spread the word around the country, and we’ve trained over 400 people since then. Worked out a lot of the challenges and solved some of them, and run into more. But I would say in general, we made progress.
Mike Hrycyk (05:12):
So, Denis, what’s your viewpoint on the genesis? Is it the same?
Denis Carignan (05:17):
Well, certainly the events were very much how I remember it. There are a couple of other things that are important to recall that the conference itself took place at a time that coincided with the tabling of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission final report in Ottawa in June of 2015. And so, a lot of the discussions during our study group tour, as well as those other 16 or 17 that were taking place across Canada, had a lot of sort of Indigenous content in them. And part of the question that Keith was asking is like, “What can be done?” My experience prior to coming to PLATO was really working in community development. It’s one thing to have a conversation about what can be done, but the bigger the conversation is, “Well, what are you actually going to do about it? ”
(05:57):
So, when I talked to Keith, Keith asked me, he said, “Well, how do things work?” So, I explained to him my experience across Canada is that communities that are finding their way to maybe a better future are ones where somebody woke up one day and said, “I got an idea. I think there’s a path to a different future.” And they chose to lead that path. And if people saw value in that path, they would buy into it. And I actually told Keith, I said, “My experience is also that you don’t even have to be a member of the community. You don’t necessarily have an Indigenous person, but if you take the time to build trust, take time to build a relationship, and you’ve got a good idea, if it makes sense, people will buy into it. It’ll have a life.” So, for me, it was an opportunity to kind of push back a little bit around a conversation that was a worthwhile conversation, but it was one that I’d had many times before with many different types of people. What I didn’t realize at the time that I was talking to somebody who was an entrepreneur, who, if he gets his mind to decide to do something, he’s just going to go do it.
(06:50):
I remember Keith talked about PQA as a business, and how he really had basically what he had described. He went after the top-tier work with a highly educated workforce, and there was a bunch of work that could be done in Canada, but he could never source the labour force in Canada to go after it. For various reasons, scale, cost, but a lot of work ended up in different parts of the world, not in Canada, even though it originated from Canada. And the question was really, why couldn’t this work be done in Northern New Brunswick, or Northern Manitoba, or Northern Saskatchewan? And the answer was, “Well, you have an infrastructure need, but you also have a professional development need. You have a human capital need.” And he said, “Well, there is a way of doing this. And maybe if you had a company that existed, you could incubate another company and make sure that that company was successful. And through a course of working together and building that company’s business acumen and experience, you could have something that would carry on and make a difference.”
(07:39):
Admittedly, it was late in the night, and I was tired. And I said something like, “Keith, that’s a great idea. You build that company, I’ll come work for you. ” About two and a half months later, he phoned me up and said, “Yeah, I remember that conversation? Well, I started building the company. We had 12 students start the training program last week. When are you coming to work for me?” It was at the start of something that was unique. It was a happenstance, an accident of life that put two people together, one who did not have a business background, somebody who worked in government, and one who had a business background and had built a successful business. And from that, we had an idea, and just a nice coincidence of factors brought us together and has helped us create something that has value.
Mike Hrycyk (08:17):
I think a point in there that I wanted to drive home is the idea was to create jobs for Indigenous people. And when Keith looked at that, he could have just opened up and said, “Okay, I’m going to hire Indigenous people. ” But what we found is that there weren’t a lot of Indigenous people who were looking for jobs and testing. There wasn’t enough of an opportunity path. People didn’t know that there were jobs out there in testing. And so, we couldn’t hire trained testers who were Indigenous. And that’s where Keith and PQA put together a course, which they’d never done before. They’d never built a five-month training course before, but they stepped up and did that. And that’s just pretty amazing to me that that was all possible and a path.
Denis Carignan (08:55):
Well, for me, it was a little bit deeper than that. Yeah, jobs were one of the goals, but the actual conversation really focused around finding ways to build wealth and to actually create employment opportunities in places where working in technology might not normally be a historical pursuit for people. So, really it was from my perspective, and maybe that was just me thinking in grandiose terms, it was really about helping to diversify economies of local communities by investing in people, providing skills and opportunity to live and grow and pursue a career that might not normally be in rural Ontario or Northern Alberta, but the rest of the world was doing it. Why couldn’t we do it too? So, that was really, from my perspective, part of the discussion, and that’s certainly what brought me in as somebody who’s interested in pursuing it.
Keith McIntosh (09:38):
Yeah, there really were four reasons. One was create jobs for people that need them, and that was something that PQA had always done. The whole PQA was founded on bringing jobs to New Brunswick. So, why couldn’t we take that concept from bring jobs to New Brunswick? And as Denis said, bring jobs to Prince Albert, Saskatchewan; Lac La Ronge First Nation; or Miramichi in Northern New Brunswick. So, that was part of it. As Denis touched on, when we were going through the concept, it was right when the Truth and Reconciliation report came out. And it was a lot of what can you do? And in order to do something, it has to be a one-time thing, but it has to be sustainable. And jobs, and employment, and skill building are sustainable.
(10:16):
Another reason that I chose to do it and I don’t want to make it so it’s not entirely philanthropic. This is a real business idea, it allows us to capture work. But at the same time, I was trying to attract people from all walks of life to come work with us. How do you attract Gen Z or a Millennial person to come and work at a company like PLATO, which tests software? It’s not the most fun job in the world. I like it, but not everybody does. Well, we gave them an impact. How are we addressing reconciliation? Well, we’re addressing systemic racism, and we’re bringing people together so that they understand and know each other and see that people are people no matter where you are. And I think probably one of the questions I know that you maybe want to ask at some point, Mike, is about what the impact on PLATO is? But one of the impacts is we’ve been able to attract a lot of people to come and work in a job that’s challenging, that’s also creating an impact.
(11:07):
When I came back to Fredericton after the conversation with Denis, I said to my team, “We’re going to create a training course that will give other people the jobs you’re doing.” Not one person said, “Wait a minute, what about me? ” Everybody jumped in and started working away at it, building the course, and delivering the course. And then mentoring and working with the students after they graduated. Because they felt, I believe, to a person, that they are having an impact on the world around them. And that’s been really great for the company as a whole. So, the people that benefit from this program are not First Nations and Métis students alone. It’s also the people that are delivering the course and working together and spreading the word. Everybody feels like there’s a benefit.
Mike Hrycyk (11:48):
Thanks, Keith. And before we move on, let’s hear from Kevin.
Kevin Jerome (11:51):
Hey, I’m Kevin Jerome. I’m an Intermediate Tester at PLATO. I had experience with tech because I took courses at UNB for computer science, so the IT field wasn’t new to me. Testing was, and the ideas behind testing were a little bit. So, I actually didn’t know about the course, JEDI [Joint Economic Development Initiative Inc.] and PLATO, up until that day. My cousin, who I was staying with in Fredericton at the time, he knew JEDI, and he asked me to go to the interview. And I knew I always wanted to do something involved in tech. It’s just what that was I wasn’t totally sure about. I went and took it and got accepted into the course.
Mike Hrycyk (12:25):
Has being part of PLATO for 10 years, how has it changed you?
Kevin Jerome (12:28):
I’m not sure. I know in my everyday life, I see every – just like a menu going to a restaurant, I notice all the little things. There was some exercises we did that had to do with being clear and precise. It’s like you write a series of steps, and it could be to draw something, and then the other person has to do it without noting what the end result was. That was pretty fun. I know I really don’t like ambiguity. When someone says something, I’m trying to be more specific and have that testing mindset always on.
Mike Hrycyk (12:57):
So, 10 years later, what about testing gets you out of bed in the morning? What about testing makes you excited?
Kevin Jerome (13:03):
I like thinking about all the different ways to run stuff, learning new stuff, going to an application and test all the different scenarios, making sure that critical applications work as they should.
Mike Hrycyk (13:16):
And so, now we fast forward, 10 years later, we’ve now trained over 350 students in our courses. We’re currently scheduling our 36th, I think, issue of the course for a hybrid between Sault Ste. Marie and Ottawa[-Gatineau]. We have trained in 11 centers in Canada. We’re 34% Indigenous employees across PLATO, and we have people from all of these courses working for us in all of our different centers, and providing value and helping us build partnerships. I think the one other stat we like is where we’ve published the number, and maybe you have an updated one, Denis, but $20 million in direct salaries to help Indigenous communities through our employees. And those numbers are just staggeringly amazing to me. It’s just phenomenal. So, looking back at the last 10 years, can you guys give us a couple of moments that stand out as memories for this? We’ll start off with you this time, Denis.
Denis Carignan (14:15):
I can remember the very first senior management meeting I went to in August of 2016. I remember that’s when I met you, Mike. We’re in Metepenagiag, New Brunswick, Red Bank First Nation. I remember sitting down at the first meeting, and we went through a bunch of technology, and I was barely understanding the terminology, and I thought to myself, “What the hell am I doing here?” Then the conversation, the agenda moved towards PLATO, and the Indigenous project was what was called at the time. And I remember there being all these super-experienced and really well-educated people around the table who had lots to say on the technical and business side of the business. But when we got to the PLATO discussion, everyone went really, really quiet. And then I realized, okay, now I know why I’m here, because when it came to the work that needed to be done around engaging with communities and organizations and trying to basically describe what it was we were doing, I thought that’s where some of the stuff that I had. So, I just remember that as something that was an important piece for me and felt like I had a belonging here.
(15:13):
Looking back, there’s been a bunch of things. And I think one of the things that I’ve really acknowledged and have had to acknowledge over time is that the company has moved very fast, and we’ve won a number of different business awards and different things. And while those were great to see, we were still moving forward as a business. And I’d had to learn to stop and look back and say, “Wow, we just really achieved something really impressive.” And the number is actually around $30 million in salaries and benefits to our Indigenous technology team. And that’s something where we look at the overall impact from a, here’s the business and here we are an employer, that’s something which is a first, I think, in the world, in terms of a company that has taken a group of Indigenous Canadians, provided training, provided employment opportunity, and have people being able to earn a livelihood. So, if you extend the impact of that beyond, I think in the last year, we’ve had at least four of our employees across Canada that I’m aware of, purchase homes. They are qualifying for mortgages and purchasing homes. And as soon as you get into that world where your domicile, where you live, has that kind of stability, it changes things for not just you, but for everyone around you.
(16:17):
I look at the fact that we’ve been doing this for 10 years, and the people that graduated from the first class in New Brunswick are now in their 10th year of experience. They’re no longer juniors. They managed to find a career path. Many are specializing in some of the more technical sides of testing, and some are working in spaces in technology that aren’t even with PLATO anymore. But the fact that they are still working in technology, their path from where they were to where they are now was through PLATO, through our training program, through our business. So, I think that’s something that I remind myself a lot. I think that’s something that’s quite important.
(16:49):
The other part is really we tried something that really hadn’t been done before. So, kind of a new business model. Love to say we knew exactly what we’re doing. We didn’t. Love to say the path to success was a nice straight line. It wasn’t. It was wiggly and wobbly, and there were ups and downs. But the thing that kept us focused was sort of the mission of what we’re doing. We’re building a business. We’re trying to make a business that’s profitable because with that profitability, we’re able to actually generate impact at a social level and help folks do something that, for many of our employees, is the very first in their family that has pursued this kind of thing. And along the way, we’ve had a lot of help. So, we’ve had a lot of large partnerships, a lot of engagements with large businesses and organizations that were interested. And to me, it probably, if I look back, been really a path to finding a new sense of hope that inside of Canada, inside of corporate Canada, there are a lot of people that are interested in making a difference and helping people from all walks of life find the futures inside of technology. And for me, that’s been something that helps keep me motivated when we hit those valleys when it comes to the business.
Keith McIntosh (17:49):
When we started, I’d already been running a software testing company for 18 years. To me, what stands out over the 10 years is how much we didn’t know when we started 10 years ago, and how much we’ve learned and how much we continue to learn. I remember we went to Garden River First Nation. Denis and I went to Garden River. What stood out to people with that one, I don’t know if you remember this, Denis, when we did our pitch. We went to them to tell them what we were going to do; to tell them we were coming to Sault Ste. Marie. We’re going to create opportunities for their members. And we spent some time with the council, and then we got up to leave, and they said, “Well, but what do you want? ” And I said, “We just wanted to let you know what we were doing and what the opportunity was going to be.” And it struck me that they expected us, I think, Denis, to be asking for something, and we weren’t. But the expectation is in some of these cases that there’s a take, and we weren’t there to take. We were there to share, I guess. And that was a learning experience for me to know that for an awful lot of time in Canada, there’s a wariness. So, when you understand that awareness is in the Council and in the people, how do we overcome that? How do we make sure that we stay as open and as honest and giving the opportunity to earn the trust, to earn the – it can’t be rushed. You have to be there, and you have to go back, and you have to be consistent. And we have to do our best to be there.
(19:03):
When we built the course, we didn’t make it just about marks to get through the course. We made it, the course, about staying with it and being part of it. And then we do two years of apprenticeship and really work hard to try and help guide people through. And it’s not enough to just say come and work. You have to provide the path, invite them in, hold them, and make them feel comfortable in an environment that someone might not have been in, whether it’s a First Nations person or a newcomer to Canada. We’ve had so many people come through the course over time and change their lives.
Mike Hrycyk (19:32):
A couple of memories that stand out for me, one builds off your changing lives, Keith. All of the employees of PLATO who are working with everything love the impact that we can make. And something that stands out for me is the way for some people, we’ve really opened up the world for them. So, we had one person who came through in Vancouver, and they didn’t have a driver’s license. Economic conditions have made it such that they never went for one. We put them on their first plane to go to a client to work on their site and help them through that process. And nine months later, they got on a plane, and they went to Japan. And they were a Japanophile. They loved anime. They loved everything about Japan. They’d never thought that we’re ever going to be able to do that until we showed them that travel’s not such a big thing. We have another person who is in Sault Ste. Marie, who loves what we’re doing so much that they’ve set a plan for themselves to visit every PLATO office. And so far, I think they’ve been to four or five, and they’ve gone across Canada, and they’re starting to see more of Canada. And that may have happened without PLATO, but I like to think that we accelerated it.
(20:33):
The one other story, and this is from really early on, and it sort of held is we were sitting in a meeting with Keith and the other delivery leaders from across the country, and he was telling us that there was this nice big office back in Fredericton, and there were a bunch of people sitting there. And as Keith said, we had 18 years of testers who’d been sitting around. And he said, “If you go back a month and you walked around this office, it was so quiet. People didn’t talk to each other. They had their heads down. They were working.” And it’s not to say it was a morgue. It was just like an accountancy business kind of thing, right? It was just quiet. And then we graduated 15 interns and put them in the same room, and suddenly the entire floor was filled with life, and you could hear it on the top floor. And we don’t mean they were partying or anything like that. They talked about testing, and they had enthusiasm like, “I just found this bug, and it’s amazing!” or “I just figured out how to use this tool!” And Keith told that story, and I was like, “That’s pretty cool, but really? ” And then I graduated my first class in Vancouver, and the same thing happened. And part of that is that a lot of our graduates are youth, but they’re not. We get graduates all the way from, I think, our most senior graduate was 62 or something like that. We get graduates all the way across the thread, but they bring a verve and curiosity, and it’s just amazing what they bring to it. And it holds, and it brings change. And I think that’s just amazing.
Denis Carignan (21:53):
About a year and a half ago, we met with a client in insurance, and they were putting on an event in Western Canada focused on basically Indigenous post-secondary students. And they said, “It wouldn’t be great” – and it was co-sponsored by an insurance technology platform. So, it was kind of a big deal. And the company VP said, “Wouldn’t it be great if we had an Indigenous resource who had experience working on that platform?” And I said, “We have some. ” He said, “Really? Would they mind coming to our event and speaking?” So, this past September, we flew somebody from Sault Ste. Marie, who came into Winnipeg and spoke to a fairly large group of Indigenous post-secondary students about her experience working for the past four years or so in insurance with various companies, working specifically with that technology platform. And that was something that was a positive experience because there’s really no one else in Canada or the world that can demonstrate that we have people who have developed that experience working for that period of time in the technology space. So, that was definitely worthwhile.
Mike Hrycyk (22:53):
Thanks, Denis. And now some words from Keisha.
Keisha Nguyen (22:57):
Qey! My name is Keisha Nguyen. I’m from Sitansisk [St. Mary’s] First Nation here in Fredericton, New Brunswick, residing in the Wabanaki Territories. I was in the very first cohort that PLATO and JEDI actually put on together. I was with PLATO for 10 years. So, honestly, when I first joined PLATO, I didn’t really know what it was going to mean to me. It was about a year after I finished high school, and I knew that I liked IT and computers and all that fun stuff, but I was mostly just trying it out. I definitely didn’t realize it would turn into a full career, or that I’d even make lifelong friends.
Mike Hrycyk (23:30):
Did you know what testing was when you joined?
Keisha Nguyen (23:32):
I didn’t. So, originally, I had applied for a different program. I had applied for an app-building program, but they were full, and then they told me about the software testing program, so I just signed up for it.
Mike Hrycyk (23:46):
How well did it match what you thought going in and what you learned on day one or day two?
Keisha Nguyen (23:52):
It actually matched a lot of real-life events and was just everything more than I expected. A lot of what we were learning connected directly to the things people use every day. So, I saw how everything worked together. It started to make a lot more sense and feel really practical.
Mike Hrycyk (24:06):
So, what is one specific skill or maybe a lesson from the program that you use today, maybe every day?
Keisha Nguyen (24:14):
One big thing is learning how to look at things from a different perspective. It’s not just about what’s working. You also have to think about what might break, what could go wrong and how to make things work the way they’re supposed to or expected to. So, that mindset sticks with you, I find.
Mike Hrycyk (24:31):
So, looking back now, 10 years, it’s a long time. What stands out?
Keisha Nguyen (24:36):
What stands out most is how much confidence it gave me. It wasn’t just about learning technical skills. It helped me a lot, like I belonged in tech, and then I can actually build a career there. PLATO really launched my career in IT. It got me into work that I still find interesting and fun, and it pushed me to keep learning. Even now, 10 years later, I’m still in the IT world, and a lot of what that comes back to is getting that start through the program.
Mike Hrycyk (25:02):
What’s one memory from the class that still makes you smile?
Keisha Nguyen (25:05):
Very first class. I met people there who are a big part of my life now. We still get together for lunch every now and then, so definitely the classmates that turned into friends and some that turned into family.
Mike Hrycyk (25:19):
So, one of the reasons we do these podcasts is to help other people be better, and do better and take shortcuts in what they know. And we don’t think we’re the only people who should be doing training programs for not just Indigenous people, anyone. And we don’t think we own how to do it right, but we’ve learned a bunch of lessons. And so, to give back, what lessons have we learned about training, mentorship, and community partnerships through our journey? And let’s start with you, Keith.
Keith McIntosh (25:45):
Well, it’s not just about training. It is about the mentorship. It is about the opportunity. It’s about the stability of a job. So, our program is that you take the course, if you complete the course, you get a full-time job offer. And I think that a full-time job offer costs us money because people need to learn. The traditional way of doing it is you hire somebody already fully baked, and you put in the work on day one. That’s not how it’s worked with us. But giving people that time to learn and be stable allows them to think, and look forward, and plan. So, that’s part of it. It’s not just training. It requires a job. It requires a company and people around them willing to absorb them and willing to interact. It’s absolutely a long game.
(26:29):
My goal for PLATO is that somewhere in the future, we aren’t required. They don’t need our training because everybody, because their ability is to go to school and follow a more traditional path or that we’re not the only path in. When we first started doing this, we saw kids streaming themselves out of STEM and out of technical careers early in high school because you have to see it to be it. And if people around you are teachers and social workers and nurses and whatnot, then that’s where you see yourself going. By creating these technical jobs and opportunities to work in IT, now the next generation of kids will see a bit more and maybe won’t stream themselves out. It will take time, but it will happen. If you can have somebody in Northern Saskatchewan testing software being built in Portugal and being used in Los Angeles, those jobs can go anywhere, but how do you get them to see that opportunity? So, that’s been part of the lesson we learned is it just takes time to show people the possibilities.
Mike Hrycyk (27:24):
Maybe we’ll flip the second part over to you, Denis. And you can answer the first part too, but what have we learned about community partnerships and building those, and how are they valuable?
Denis Carignan (27:32):
Well, on the community partnership side, I mean, the first thing is we have a training program, and we are associated with a post-secondary institution with that program, but we’re not a post-secondary institution, and we’re not everywhere in Canada. So, the purpose of developing local relationships is really to help build awareness amongst people who might be interested in this kind of a training program or these types of careers. That it exists and that it’s going to be coming up because no one other than local communities and their organizations know better about who in their communities plays with technology, utilizes it on a daily basis, and has, if not the aptitudes, then definitely the interest of potentially working in a technology career space. I started out by saying, “Hey, we’re PLATO.” And if you work in the Indigenous space, especially in the education side at Adult Ed, you’ll know that there was a software package, I don’t know if it still exists, but it was called PLATO. And it was basically upgrading for adults to get to a GED, and you took it online. So, I remember the first number of calls that I would call out, people would say, “Well, yeah, you’re trying to sell us the software, right?” And I’d say, “No, we’re actually a company, and this is what we’re doing.” And you had to explain not only what software testing was, but also what PLATO was in our context.
(28:42):
When it comes to the movement across Canada, basically within our communities, people talk, right? So, if you’re an organization that promises the world but doesn’t deliver, as you work your way across Canada, you’re going to be known before you show up at the door as a company that promises the world but doesn’t deliver. But the inverse of that is also true, that if we do what we do, we say what we’re going to do, we create the jobs, we create the opportunities and people are working and enjoying it, then the next time we go, the greater likelihood that somebody will know who we are when we call. And that’s certainly been our experience that we started in New Brunswick, then we went to Vancouver, and we’ve been kind of filling in the space in between ever since. And over the course of the last decade, it’s become easier to start the conversations with less explanation required because people have heard about PLATO and they kind of know what it is that we’re doing. And in many cases, people are really excited to hear that we’re finally coming to their place. And that has a lot to do with understanding how communities communicate with each other and how people talk. Making the effort to build relationships and sustain those over time really makes a difference when doing business with Indigenous communities.
(29:46):
When it comes to the training program, I think we started out with a couple of assumptions. Maybe there were some deficits in terms of funding, maybe there were deficits in terms of people being able to dig into the subject matter of testing and technology, a number of other assumptions that we had when we first built the course. And I think we’ve discovered that, to a certain degree, by and large, all of those were correct. But when it comes to having somebody successfully transition from where they were through the program into a career where they become sticky in the market, where they tend to stay and pursue it as a career, it seems like one of the bigger barriers that I’ve found is getting folks to feel comfortable and secure in the space. Finding that sense of I go in, maybe I don’t know the answer to the question, but I’m not afraid of being vulnerable and putting up my hand saying, “Okay, I came up with this configuration issue or this technical issue. I don’t know the answer to the question. Can you help me? ” I know from personal experience that growing up, going into kind of foreign environments where you feel uncomfortable, sometimes it was just easier to fail and get out of there because you didn’t have to tell people that you didn’t know or you didn’t have to tell people that you weren’t able to do something. Unfortunately, what ends up there is that you create a failure for yourself, and you create a situation where you’re fearful of that environment. Really, what we’re trying to do as a consulting company is help people find the path to being self-reliant in any given situation. So, working in a technology environment, come up against something new, the way the business is structured, something is different, haven’t seen it before, put up the hand, ask the question, find out the answer to that question, and then continue to solve problems.
(31:17):
My wife is an algebra teacher, and what she’s discovered is that people are not bad at math, but quite often, people are scared to make mistakes. And you need to create a situation where people can see what’s going on and kind of understand. But when they get something right, make sure that they acknowledge you just created something, did something right. As people find little bits of success, they tend to be a little bit more rigorous in terms of getting at the next problem. As you build successes, you build confidence, and as you build confidence, you build self-reliance. And to me, I think what we’re trying to do at an individual level is get folks to a situation where they feel comfortable in the space, they feel comfortable in their abilities to, if not know the answer to a problem, to be able to find it, that they can reach out, that they’ve got the network, that they’ve got the support to be able to answer the problem that the client has, the technology problem, whatever it is, get a solution and then move on. And I think that is ultimately part of the challenge, I think, with any junior resource coming into any new place. But I think probably with many of our own community members, some of the barriers might be a little bit higher and getting them to that spot just requires a little bit more.
Keith McIntosh (32:18):
It’s absolutely not unique, not only First Nations folks that have that problem of not wanting to speak up. And that’s one of the things we talk to our clients and partners that we work with is if you’re not hearing questions, don’t assume that that means everything’s okay. It means that they’re keeping their head down because that’s how people have learned to survive by not drawing attention to themselves. I have equally the same problem of not wanting to raise my hand and show I don’t know something. So, that’s been a challenge that we work with our partners and our clients to say, “Reach out. Don’t just assume it’s good. Ask, wait for the answer.” And we coach our students, we coach our mentors, our interns, and our apprentices to raise their hands and ask questions. It’s okay. There’s no bad consequences of asking a question.
(33:01):
We’re starting to have a voice. We’re starting to have – PLATO, as a company, is having influence across the country, and people are looking to us as, “Oh, how did you do this? ” And I’m really glad we’re having this conversation now, Mike, on a podcast to get the message out that this is a doable thing. We didn’t have a special sauce. We had an idea, we had patience, and we had the willingness to ask questions, pivot, and change as we learned the right answers.
Mike Hrycyk (33:26):
And to make your point, the willingness to be wrong and to fix it. Keith, you talked about this a little bit earlier, sort of on the individual basis, but how has the program impacted PLATO as an organization?
Keith McIntosh (33:37):
Well, the easy answer, Mike, is that from the time we started it, once we got our feet under it and understanding what we could do, PLATO as a company has gone from 100 people and two centers to north of 300 people all across the country. So, it’s been a hugely successful business idea that has brought us into doors and had people talk to us that we really, as a small business in Canada, don’t any place at. But because of what we’re doing, because of what we’ve done, people ask us, and are willing to talk to us, and to try and learn from what we’ve done and use our abilities. That’s been impactful. You already talked about people talking more. It changes the outlook, the thought of most of our employees that they feel like they’re contributing. So, that’s been a wonderful piece as well. It’s a challenge now to think, well, where does it go from here? But it’s brought us to the inflection point where the opportunities are there. We just have to figure out how to take the next one. But those opportunities wouldn’t have been in front of us if we hadn’t have made that decision in 2015 to train 12 people.
Mike Hrycyk (34:35):
Thanks, Keith. Now we’ll go to Matt to share some of his memories.
Matt Amos (34:40):
Hi, I’m Matt Amos. I was with PLATO for 14 years. 10 years ago, I joined the software testing course as a Subject Matter Expert. Previous to that, I was a senior tester at the company, and I am currently a QA manager at a product company. So, when I joined, my understanding was that we were looking to do some training in the QA space for folks that were interested in joining QA. There was no other programs to really reference for this. So, my part was going to be as the Subject Matter Expert, someone who was experienced with best methodologies, be the person to sort of showcase things that work well, challenges that had been overcome in a real working environment, and help another person who was an instructor deliver content for folks.
(35:26):
Some expectations that changed after getting into the course. There were a lot of things that I grew to understand from an instructor’s point of view. The way people are seeking consistency as well as content knowledge from you. They’re joining every day. They’re putting a lot of work in to understand the things that you’re trying to convey, the concepts that you’re trying to go over. And don’t move too fast for the individual, and try to hold everybody together on where you’re trying to go on this education journey. As we’ve proceeded through the different courses, my perception changed not on an education side, but on a connection side. People are joining from all walks of different lives. And there’s an interest, there’s a passion, there’s something there that they’re looking for. The course is an opportunity for all of us to come together and grow into a new space within IT.
(36:17):
Something that still makes me smile today is there was a moment in the class, I sort of tried to sum up at the end of the day, the days learning or the weeks learning, the lessons, the things that we’re trying to achieve, and sort of put a bow on it, understand where we’re trying to go, how it fits in. And as the class was leaving, they were sort of like, “Okay, thanks, Matt. Thanks for summing it up.” A student in that first cohort reached out probably a month ago or so and said, “Thanks for being there. I really appreciate it. I know it’s been a long time since we connected, but I really, really think of you as that person who really helped me learn and helped me grow, helped steer me, and I still really appreciate it. Thank you very much.” I’m really proud of that first program because it was a start to something a lot bigger, and it felt like something bigger at the time. Obviously, now it’s grown quite a bit, but it’s pretty rare that you get to start anything at an entry level or grassroots level and be a part of it from the beginning. And that’s the piece that I hold onto the most, that I was there in the beginning to help achieve what things are now in place.
(37:20):
I heard this the other day: the culture of your organization is what’s measured by how the people feel on Sunday night. The people in that course really led me to a place where I couldn’t wait to come to work the next day and be a part of their journey. It’s pretty special when you can’t wait to get to work the next day to try the next thing, to overcome the next problem, with a group of people who are looking to understand more about what we do. And that’s pretty rare. There aren’t a lot of people who are always wanting to become a QA master, but these folks really wanted to understand what we do, and it’s really rare to be part of something at an entry level or grassroots level, knowing that it can be something much bigger than it is.
Mike Hrycyk (38:10):
So, I’m going to capitalize on your segue there, Keith. As we wrap up, what excites you most about the future of the program and its continued growth?
Keith McIntosh (38:17):
My goal for PLATO is that in the future, the program doesn’t need to exist because we’ve laid the groundwork that it’s sustainable, that it’s done on its own. It just becomes part of everyday life that everybody’s expected to have an opportunity. More and more people are looking at this program and saying, “We can do that too.” And that’s great. So, I’m happy. I think that what we’ve done is shown a way that other people can follow and that we can continue to follow ourselves.
Mike Hrycyk (38:39):
Thanks, Keith. Denis?
Denis Carignan (38:40):
We’re funny as a species because we all love stability and we want things to stay the same, but we know that in our business, the world is changing, right? So, we talk about AI, we talk about the changes that that’s going to bring. There’s a lot of doom and gloom, but there’s also a lot of opportunity in there because it’s going to require the need to change what was done and find other ways to add value for clients. So, what is exciting to me is that we’ve proven that we can do this. We’ve proven that we can train successfully and have people transition into careers. But while we’ve been doing this, not everybody we’ve trained as a tester is actually working as a tester. We have folks who are working as business analysts and project managers and doing other roles in technology. Yeah, they were trained by us to do something, but now they’re doing something else. We’re also getting requests from our partners and our client organizations to say, “Hey, can you provide resources that are specialized in this? ” And whether it’s cybersecurity or a specific platform or data analysis, there are things like that that we think we can do. The question is, can we make a business out of it? That becomes a challenge for us as leaders in the business to say, “Okay, we think we can do the training part. Now we need to branch out and expand our business into new areas, some of which are new, some of which we don’t know exist yet, but we know there’s going to be a need for companies, Canadian companies to be able to deliver on these kinds of things.” So, for me, it’s sort of exciting to know that unlike other evolutions that have happened in technology where there were no Indigenous voices at the table, suddenly there’s an opportunity for some to be at that table and to be a part of this next technology revolution, whatever it is, so that there are voices that add balance to the overall ecosystem and how things work and operate going forward.
Keith McIntosh (40:16):
Denis, if you look around at what the business world looked like 10 years ago, as far as Indigenous businesses, Indigenous technology companies, and you look at it now, it is hugely different. The [Indigenous] Tech Circle guys out in Vancouver and all across the country. And I’d like to think that we didn’t – it’s not all because of us, but I think we had a part in spreading that and creating that opportunity and that confidence to go do that.
Denis Carignan (40:37):
Yeah, I agree. I’m a part of that group, and I’m a part of others. And it’s nice to be recognized from within our own communities that, hey, we’re doing something that’s of value. And many look to us to help continue to find ways to lead and to keep making a difference. And that’s something that is exciting for me, and it’s motivating as well.
Keith McIntosh (40:53):
There’s a fine line, though, between being looked at as the leaders and being looked at as the old guys. And I don’t know that we’re tipping onto that old guy side of things a bit.
Mike Hrycyk (41:01):
That’s why we keep hiring young people to keep us young. Alright. So, I’d like to thank our panel, Keith and Denis, for joining us in this great discussion about PLATO and our 10-year anniversary. Thank you to our listeners for tuning in. I think this conversation was great. I think we’re just at the start of our journey. Sure, we’re 10 years in, but there’s a lot more years to come, and there’s a lot more growth and change that still need to come.
(41:22):
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