What happens when you move from being an individual contributor to managing and developing others? In this episode of PLATO Panel Talks, host Mike Hrycyk is joined by Heather Stapleton (PLATO, Delivery Leader, Atlantic Region) and Ellery Furlong (PLATO, Manager) for a practical conversation about mentoring, coaching, and management in tech with lessons from their own experiences, including how to build trust, support quieter team members, adapt your mentoring style, and avoid becoming a crutch for the people you lead. Moving into management isn’t just about taking on more responsibility. It’s about learning how to help others, and yourself, grow confidently in technology careers.
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Episode Transcript
Mike Hrycyk (00:01):
Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of PLATO Panel Talks. I’m your host, Mike Hrycyk. Today’s topic is one that is truly near and dear to my own heart: mentoring. So much of what makes a person great in IT, whether testing or any other role, isn’t written down. There isn’t some YouTube video that just gives you all the answers. Every situation is too different, too unique, too customized. The secret tool that so many successful IT folks have discovered that has helped them on their own path is mentorship. I’ve had both great mentors in my career and strive to be a mentor to people whenever I can. Whether you’re a QA professional, a developer, or someone looking to grow into a leadership role, moving into mentorship or management is a natural next step, but it also comes with new challenges and responsibilities.
(00:44):
At PLATO, mentorship is a big part of what we do. With apprentices and junior team members joining us across the country, we’ve had the opportunity to learn a lot about developing talent, supporting career growth, and helping people build confidence as they take on new challenges. So, today we’re going to talk about mentorship and leadership in tech, specifically the transition from being an individual contributor to taking on mentorship and management responsibilities. We’ll discuss what the transition looks like, the skills that make a great mentor and manager, and some of the lessons we’ve learned along the way. Joining me are two people with a wealth of experience supporting and developing teams. Heather, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, please?
Heather Stapleton (01:21):
Sure. Thanks, Mike. So, I’m Heather Stapleton. My role here at PLATO is I’m the Delivery Leader for the Atlantic region. I also own the training and apprenticeship programs here as well. So, through that, obviously I’ve had a lot of opportunities to do mentoring and coaching, especially with our apprentices and juniors. And I’ve been with PLATO for about two and a half years now.
Mike Hrycyk (01:43):
Thanks, Heather. Ellery, tell us about yourself.
Ellery Furlong (01:45):
So, I’m Ellery Furlong. I’ve been with PLATO for over 10 years now, and I’m a manager in the Ottawa-Gatineau office. I’ve been involved in a lot of the training programs that PLATO offers, and most of people that I manage locally have been folks that have gone through our training program. So, that’s involved a lot of mentoring and coaching as well.
Mike Hrycyk (02:02):
And for those of you who don’t know me, my name’s Mike Hrycyk. I’m the VP of Service Delivery for the British Columbia region. I’ve been with PLATO for 10 years, just a little bit less time than Ellery. I’ve been a huge proponent of mentoring throughout my career. And in a couple of prior organizations, I’ve built some mentoring groups to foster mentoring amongst employees, and I’m super passionate about having this discussion and helping people become better mentors.
(02:27):
Alright. So, as I said, we’re going to come at this from the perspective of a person who’s becoming a manager. We’re going to help managers discover themselves and being a mentor. So, we thought it’d be a good idea to sit down and have a discussion and talk about what that means. Talk about how it relates to being a manager and just understanding how mentoring fits into relationships. So, let’s get started with: tell us about your very first experience as a manager. What was it like, and who helped you? Let’s kick this off with you, Heather.
Heather Stapleton (02:54):
Okay. So, my experience was probably not the best example. So, when I first became a manager, I was at a small start-up company, maybe only 25 people there, and it was pretty much chaos. So, thrown in the deep end, figured out kind of thing. So, not ideal. As time went on and we grew and they brought more experienced people in, then I started to meet with managers who actually had time to do some mentoring and sit with me. And then it was much better. But honestly, at the beginning, a lot of it was just trial and error on my part. It’s like you do something, and it’s like, “No, it didn’t go so well. Okay, don’t do that anymore. Find another way.”
(03:31):
What I would say to people who are hopefully coming into maybe an organization that has a better management organization already in place is find someone who’s kind of got those attributes or qualities that you admire and feel like are a good example, and then just introduce yourself to them and try to strike up some conversations that could lead into a mentoring relationship.
Mike Hrycyk (03:57):
Don’t downplay your own experience there, Heather, because coming from a place where the mentorship wasn’t great and the management wasn’t great and figuring out what not to do is almost as powerful as figuring out what to do. So, I think your experience is super valid. Alright, Ellery, tell us about your first experience as a manager.
Ellery Furlong (04:15):
So, my first experience as a manager was in 2017 when I helped instruct the second class in Miramichi (New Brunswick) that PLATO was offering there. So, I was acting as a subject matter expert, but also helping to manage the classroom. So, it was kind of more in a classroom capacity than it was necessarily an employee manager, but given the structure of the class, it kind of ends up being like that anyway. And my biggest mentors during that time would’ve definitely been John McLaughlin, who I was teaching with, and Matt Amos, who was kind of the director of the training program at that time. And then that kind of expanded when I went to Edmonton (Alberta) to teach a class. That fall, I was kind of there by myself. I really had to kind of own the whole delivery process there.
Mike Hrycyk (04:58):
When you got thrown off the deep end in Edmonton, was there part of it there, though, that it almost forced you to ask for help when you needed?
Ellery Furlong (05:05):
Certainly. Yeah. I was on the phone with Matt Amos almost every day, talking him through what happened that day and how I handled it and maybe asking for feedback or talking to him about things I knew I was going to have to handle coming up. And it was great to be able to have open dialogue with him.
Mike Hrycyk (05:22):
That’s one of the hard parts to train your people is letting a mentor know when you need help. A mentorship can be push-pull.
(05:28)
For myself, I started being a manager as a supervisor; it was in an operations role at a railroad, and everyone was significantly older than me and no one was in the slightest willing to take mentorship from a 19-year-old who has made their supervisor. So, that’s one part of it where there’s just the relationships make it in an impossibility and we can talk about that. But as I started up a QA department at the same place, what I realized is that there’s something that makes mentorship easy. And that’s when you’re an expert and people read you as the expert. So, as I built up a QA department in an organization that didn’t know testing at all, and I started being a person people could go to and talk to about how to be a better tester, it opened up the relationship. And being able to be an expert makes people more willing to listen. And as soon as you can be an authority on a subject, people will listen more in multiple subjects. Being the wise old owl helps to some extent. Either of you experienced anything like that?
Ellery Furlong (06:28):
I kind of did. So, I felt kind of quite anxious about getting into this classroom setting, and I kind of felt like I was maybe getting in over my head. And I talked to Matt Amos about that at the time, and he said something that stuck with me: “Remember that you’re the expert in the room, even if you don’t feel like you are, you’re the one that knows the most.” So, own that and use it to give yourself the courage to go on.
Mike Hrycyk (06:50):
So, that segues brilliantly, Ellery, into the next question I have, which is: when you think back to your early career, what made a mentor or coach memorable for you? So, I think we have a great answer there. Heather, do you have an early mentorship story that you can relate?
Heather Stapleton (07:05):
Yeah. So, for me, someone kind of guided me to: if you’re not feeling confident, here are ways you can look more confident. And one of them was I had a tendency to say, “I guess,” a lot. And as soon as you use that word, how that instantly changes everybody’s way they perceive you. So, that was one of the biggest bits of feedback, a simple little thing, but just by changing that language, you can have a huge impact on how much people might respect you or feel about your abilities as an expert in that area. Because as soon as you say “guess”, you’ve just completely blown your credibility out of the water. So, that’s one of the very first things that I learned.
Mike Hrycyk (07:46):
Yeah. Don’t pretend to be an expert when you’re very definitively not, but don’t downplay your own experience and expertise when what you have has value.
Heather Stapleton (07:56):
Absolutely. And another thing I learned was if you don’t know something, it’s okay to say you don’t know it. And trying to pretend and just making stuff up or being blatantly wrong is worse. So, often you say, “Look, I’m not sure, but I will go figure that out, and I’ll come back, and I’ll let you know as soon as I can.” So, that’s an important point as well. You can fake it to a degree, but if you’re completely out of your depth on something, just say, I’ll have to get back to you.
Mike Hrycyk (08:22):
I think this segues nicely into the next question, which is the difference between being a mentor and being a coach. And maybe I’ll wrap it back up at the end after we do some defining here, but we’ll stick with you, Heather. What is the difference?
Heather Stapleton (08:39):
It’s the way you approach it. Being a mentor is more about telling. So, you’re going in there telling people about your experience and how it might relate to whatever they’re working on at the moment or trying to help them through an issue or problem that maybe they’re stuck on. Whereas a coach is more to help them figure it out for themselves. So, it’s more like an asking. So, if they come to you and they’re like, “Oh, I’ve got this problem. I don’t know what to do.” Instead of just saying, “Oh, well, I would do X, Y, Z.” Say, “Okay, well, what are your thoughts on it? Tell me what you think. And then we’ll discuss that. And maybe it’s a good idea; maybe I’ll have some suggestions.” But that’s the main difference. It’s kind of like a tell versus an ask.
Ellery Furlong (09:21):
Yeah. And I kind of think of it too as mentoring is kind of about being an example and demonstrating the example. Whereas I think coaching can be a bit more of a management strategy sometimes, especially if you’re coaching and giving them goals to achieve and things like that.
Mike Hrycyk (09:37):
Yeah. I want to not disagree flat out. I want to tilt yours a little bit, Heather. To me, mentoring is less about telling and more about educating with real-life examples and with experience. Just when you say telling, to me, it comes across as if it’s too authoritarian; people may not listen.
Heather Stapleton (9:58):
When I said “tell,” maybe “explain” was the better word. It’s more like sharing experience and telling them what you’ve experienced than saying, “No, this is very prescriptive what you must do.”
Mike Hrycyk (10:08):
And I mean, that’s one of the cornerstones of the way we give our testing course too, right, Ellery, is the reason we have a subject matter expert there is to tell stories from their own experience, to connect up context.
Ellery Furlong (10:21):
Yeah, definitely. Having stories to back up what we’re teaching is a really important part of the curriculum.
Mike Hrycyk (10:27):
And so, to put that wraparound, as I promised I would. So, Heather, when you talked about it, it’s okay to say you don’t know. And that’s where coaching lends itself. You have the experience to help people go down a path towards learning on their own. If you don’t have an answer, you don’t know the answer, then it’s coaching where you lean on your coaching side of your skills. So, I think as a manager, you have to be a coach and a mentor. Building on that, why is it important to understand when someone needs mentoring versus coaching? And how do you do that? Heather?
Heather Stapleton (10:58):
I guess my thoughts on that are: I think when you’re first starting to meet with someone, certainly somebody who’s maybe new in their role, the mentoring side of things is probably going to be where you’ll start because they’re just getting used to it. You’ve got a lot of experience to share with them. But once they’ve kind of started to get their feet under them, it can be a very good time to switch to coaching. So instead of them just coming and asking you, and you giving your opinion, that’s when you kind of turn it back on them. You’re like, okay, you’ve been in this role for whatever period of time. Now it’s time for you to come to me with your questions, but also with your ideas- what you think might be a good idea. And we’ll talk about that.
(11:36):
Because I think a lot of times, especially people in mentoring/manager, whatever kind of roles you want to say, they go into it with the approach that I really want to help this person. I can help them by telling them what to do. But there’s a point when you have to switch that and say, if they’re going to really grow, you have to let them come to their own conclusions. And so, you have to get out of that mindset of just always saying, “Hey, I think you should try this,” and let them try to come up with the ideas on their own. And you be their sounding board. You listen to their thoughts and say, “I like that. Did you think about maybe tweaking it like this? ” or whatever. And it’s more of a conversation. Mentoring, a lot of times, is more just you passing on your experience. And obviously you listen, but it’s more lopsided conversation than a coaching would be.
Mike Hrycyk (12:20):
When you think about it, when a person learns something on their own, they learn it better. They learn how to explain it. And so, where possible, coaching helps you down that path better. And I think your example of when you don’t know what you’re doing and you’re just starting, the mentoring is a very good place. Because as you say, you help you get your feet under you. And then as you start to walk or run, you can do that with coaching. It becomes a flow, and you understand where you’re pulling back on mentoring and handing it to coaching.
(12:48):
The other place that I think it’s really important for mentoring is when emotions are getting the better of themselves. And maybe they’ve failed a couple of times, and they can’t get past that, or maybe it’s scary, or there’s any number of reasons. But when you can see that a person can’t move forward because the emotions of the situation are getting in the way of it, that’s time for a story. That’s time for a shared experience. That’s time to listen. And all of those are part of mentoring.
(13:13):
So, I think we’ve talked about this. Is a manager a mentor, a coach? Both? Neither? Ellery, what’s your opinion?
Ellery Furlong (13:22):
Both, I think; it depends on the situation. Especially when someone’s starting out, they need to hear those stories. They need to know how others do it before they learn themselves how they should handle situations. And then I think be there to be a coach for when there are more specific circumstances they need help with.
Mike Hrycyk (13:40):
Heather, how does a manager know when to change hats from coach to mentor and back and forth?
Heather Stapleton (13:45):
It’s not always obvious, I don’t think. But my example I gave before, I do find starting as the mentor and then kind of switching into coach. I think especially when they’re coming back to you with similar kinds of questions, and you feel like, okay, I think they should have learned from this first example and be able to apply it to the second one. And certainly, if they seem to be struggling to do that, that’s de finitely a good sign to go into coach mode. Because it’s like, okay, if I explain to them or share my experience again like I just already did in a similar situation, I don’t want to do that again. So, I think it’s time to switch to coaching. That might be a really good example.
Mike Hrycyk (14:25):
Absolutely. I think another one is that at some point a person’s going to want to move from listening to doing, and you can sense that. And then, so, if you slide into coaching, which is going to directly give them something to do. Have an “assignment”, I’m going to air quote assignment because the assignment could just be, can you go and figure out what this means and come back and we’ll talk about it? It’s transitioning into the doing.
Heather Stapleton (14:49):
Yeah, absolutely. When you sense that they’re very keen, they’re eager, they want to do more, and they’re ready, that’s a good sign as well.
Mike Hrycyk (14:55):
And it’s a risk, right? If you always provide an answer, you become a crutch, but you’re not always going to be there. You’re not always going to be available. And if one of your employees is at that point, they’re either going to be left frozen and helpless, or they’re going to shift that crutch over to someone else. And that someone else could be a client who wants you to be an expert, and you shouldn’t be shifting that need to ask questions. We need people to be self-sufficient. And I think that the biggest goal of coaching and mentorship is to make people self-sufficient and confident.
Heather Stapleton (15:30):
Agree.
Mike Hrycyk (15:31):
Alright. So, shifting a little bit, what’s one simple thing a new manager can do on day one or day two or day three to build trust with more junior resources to make them more receptive to mentorship and coaching?
Ellery Furlong (15:46):
I think an important thing to do to earn someone’s trust as a new manager is to hold yourself to the same expectations you’re holding them to. Live up to your word. If people come to understand that you always just tell them what they want to hear, but it doesn’t actually mean anything. They’re not going to come to trust you or believe you. So, I think it’s important to be true to your word and also to hold yourself to the same expectations.
Heather Stapleton (16:07):
Yeah. I think a big part of that building of trust is just getting to know the people well. So, having those regular one-on-ones with them, asking about their hobbies or their families or whatever, and starting a conversation with just some chit-chat about whatever instead of just always getting right down to business. There are occasionally people who just don’t want to share. They’re like, “I come to work, and you don’t get to know anything about my personal life,” and that’s fine. So, you have to feel everybody out and learn how they like to communicate with you. But I think establishing those relationships and showing that you remember and that you care enough about them, and that you learn some things about them. And it will also help you inform how you interact with them going forward because everybody might have slightly different needs. If you take the time to learn, I think that really helps to build trust.
Mike Hrycyk (16:57):
So, there’s something in what you said there that I don’t even know if it’s something we were going to tackle today, but I want to dig in a little bit. How do you draw the line between being a mentor and being a friend? There’s a line there too, right? And maybe it’s the same line. Do you have any thoughts to build on there, Heather?
Heather Stapleton (17:12):
That’s a really hard one because you want to be certainly friendly with people that you want them to feel like they can come and talk to you if they’ve got an issue or a concern. You don’t want them to be afraid of you. But you also have to say, okay, but we do have these working guidelines, these expectations. So, just because maybe we are very cordial with each other doesn’t necessarily mean you can say, “oh, you know what? I think I just want to take this afternoon off or whatever”. So, you have to set guidelines and say, “well, we do have a handbook and there are rules in there about how much notice you need to give.” So, you do have to let them know that even though you may be friendly with them, you want to get to know them and interact with them on that level, there are lines, there are boundaries, and you have to try to make that clear without being harsh.
Mike Hrycyk (17:57):
And it’s better if you remind gently earlier rather than it coming to a head where they do something inappropriate, or tell an inappropriate story, or have an inappropriate request, and then you have to make it a thing. And then there’s always that pullback. So, it’s early on just holding off; if they’re going to tell you something that’s a little too personal, it’s like, “Ah, maybe you shouldn’t be telling me that story. Let’s talk about something else.”
(18:20):
Some of the things you guys have said have put some ideas in my head. So, on day one, I think it’s to demonstrate that you’re approachable. You are not an authoritarian living in a tower. You’re a person who wants to have a discussion. So, you come up with stories, and you’re sharing about yourself. Good mentorship is sharing stories of yourself, maybe not super intimate personal stories, but the fact that you’re sharing from your own life shows that you’re approachable and that you want to have that interactive discussion.
(18:45):
And that’s day one. But building on from there, I think it’s really important to be consistent, have the responses. If they come at you with a certain question a certain way, I don’t care if you’re having a bad day; you respond in a consistent manner, which is a friendly, approachable manner. If you have to put them off, you do it with an explanation that they understand why you’re doing it, and so on.
(19:05):
Another thing I think is really important is to demonstrate that your expertise and experience are worthy of a mentorship relationship. Have them be able to see you in situations where you’re demonstrating that you’re good at what you do. And that could be an extra level of thought; it’s like if I invite them to this meeting, they’ll get to see people respecting me and talking to me and asking my opinion, and then they’re going to value it more. And that’s not always easy to do those things, but if you’re thinking along those lines, then you can have people understand.
(19:37):
We’ve had lots of different people report to us. We’ve mentored lots of different people. How do you build a rapport with someone who’s new and really quiet? Heather?
Heather Stapleton (19:48):
So, I would make sure that I had a lot of individual one-on-one time with them because they may not feel comfortable speaking in the team. So, start that way. And then, over time, when they’re feeling a little more comfortable, find ways to give them an opportunity to maybe speak in a larger group, but make that a soft landing at first. So, within the small group of people that they’re comfortable with, and then just build on that slowly over time, because you can’t force someone who’s a super introvert. And I’ve worked with tons of those, having been in IT for, I don’t know, since the mid-’90s – however long that is – met tons and tons of those people. So, you have to give them their time to get there. You can’t just say, “okay, you’re doing a presentation next week in front of a hundred people. Good luck!” You have to build it. You have to be patient with them and do it over time. You will have to poke them and prod them a little bit from time to time because they’re not going to do it on their own, but not just completely throw them in the deep end.
Mike Hrycyk (20:47):
Alright. So, Ellery, you’ve had a trillion juniors who you’ve worked with. What do you do for the people who are super quiet, don’t want to respond, and don’t want to contribute? And how do you get into their shell?
Ellery Furlong (20:56):
So, one thing I’ve noticed: the people that make other people feel the most included do a good job of including someone in a conversation without putting them on the spot. During the conversation, they’ll just kind of turn to that person and talk just to them, but not necessarily put them on the spot to contribute. So, I think I try to do that. And in the classroom, it can be a bit different as well. Right off the bat, we start doing some public speaking and such in the class. And I’ve had folks that really struggle with that. So, I’ve even had some people just start off by presenting to just me and try to get them warmed up to being able to speak in front of the class. So, I think taking it slowly can help as well. And just kind of including them in ways that also helps them warm up to the other folks on the team.
Mike Hrycyk (21:42):
We work in an industry where eventually you will have to demo something. That is a part of all of our careers. But I really, really liked what you said about inclusion without them needing to be verbal. I’ve never thought about that before. And I’m going to try that some more.
Heather Stapleton (21:57):
And just another thought I had too is if you can find something that they are super passionate about, they’re going to be more willing to talk about it. It’s like, even if you could just get them started on talking about a movie that they really loved, and something that they can maybe feel a little more confident in because it’s not necessarily work-related. So, they may be feeling like there are all these people here who have been testers for 20 years and I’m just beginning, and I don’t know anything about it, but maybe I’m super passionate and an expert about something outside, and I’m willing to get up and talk about that. And that can just be a foot in the door.
Mike Hrycyk (22:29):
Or one of the things that would make you a super manager is if you have a bunch of people in a meeting and one of them is more junior and it’s more quiet and we’re talking about something, try to remember that bug that the quiet person found or that observation that they made. And when you shift the context to them, you have to do it in a smooth way where it’s obvious that they’re an expert and it’s obvious what you want them to say next. Because if you have to make them think about an answer, they’re going to get all locked up inside themselves. But if you can say, “Hey, remember that bug where you clicked on this thing and this thing happened? How did that work out for you?” And that can be a way to do it.
(23:09):
Alright. So, Heather, you’ve got a person, you’re working with them, you’re coaching them, or you’re mentoring them, and they’re not responding very well. How do you pivot? How do you adjust your own style? Is it important to have more than one style? Is it important to have more than one capability?
Heather Stapleton (23:25):
Yep. I think you have to, because doing this as long as I have, not everybody’s going to respond the same way. A couple of different ideas. You might go to somebody who’s your coach or mentor and ask them for some ideas. Say, look, have you experienced a situation where a person was kind of like this, and how did you get them to respond? You might just say, “Hey, look, I’ve been trying to reach out to you and work with you. How can I interact with you that’s going to work better? Do you have ideas? Is there something you want me to change?” Because if you’re not sure, just ask them. I mean, there’s no harm in that. And they may say, “Look, our meetings are every Tuesday morning and for whatever reason, that’s not a good time for me. I’m in a bad mental state because of whatever. Can we switch it to Wednesday?” It could be as simple as that. And then you’re like, “Sure, great. No problem.” Or they may come across with something that never occurred to you. So, I think don’t be afraid to ask them what works for you, and I’ll see if I can do it if it’s reasonable.
Mike Hrycyk (24:21):
Ellery, anything to add?
Ellery Furlong (24:23):
Heather’s points about talking to other folks about how they’ve handled maybe similar situations in the past is a good approach. And if the option’s there, also maybe changing the way you meet with someone too. If you’ve been meeting remotely, if there’s someone in your office that you could schedule it when you’re both in the office, maybe that makes them more conducive to having a more productive meeting with you.
Mike Hrycyk (24:47):
Think outside of the box. I’ve done one-on-ones while walking down the shore in Vancouver. Some people are way more open when they can walk through a park. And if that’s how you have to start, see if you can make that work. That doesn’t work as well virtually, but you know what? You can do a virtual meeting with two people walking in independent parks. Think out of the box. Alright. What are some common mistakes new managers make when they’re trying to mentor or coach?
Ellery Furlong (25:13):
I think they can focus maybe too much on maintaining their authority over helping the people they’re trying to help. Feeling like you’re given this new responsibility and you need to show that you can hold this authority rather than maybe trying to help the people you’re there to help instead.
Mike Hrycyk (25:31):
Heather?
Heather Stapleton (25:32):
I think one of the biggest mistakes people make is making an assumption that you know what they want, why they’re there. And you’re like, “Oh, you’re coming to see me. You’re having trouble with whatever. Clearly you want me to tell you this.” So, I’m going to go off, and I’m going to go on this big long story, and I’m going to tell you all this stuff about me, and this will make everything better. But maybe it’s not really addressing what they came there for. And maybe you’re not listening enough. You’re like, “Okay, I’m going to be the best mentor ever, and I’m going to show them the way.” And then you may have gone down the wrong path, and that’s not what they needed, or that’s not why they were there. I think it’s super important that you take the time to listen to them first and try to understand what they need out of that relationship before you just jump in and try to give them answers.
Mike Hrycyk (26:19):
We’re on question nine of this thing, and we hadn’t focused yet on listening. And I think that’s a miss in our conversation. Listening is the most important thing in mentorship. The one thing I would add: understand that every person is an individual. Every person has their own method of communication, and achieving an understanding of being able to talk to them in a way that they can listen to you can be just as important. Being open to that understanding. Not everyone is you, and you are not the same as everyone else.
(26:47):
How do you think mentoring and coaching are evolving with hybrid or remote working circumstances? Heather, what have you seen?
Heather Stapleton (26:56):
It’s a whole lot easier to become disconnected from people when you’re not in the office every day. You lose just that wandering through the office, going to get a tea or a coffee and bumping into somebody and having that chit-chat. So, you have to be very consistent with making sure you’re connecting with people when you’re not seeing them all the time. And I may be called an old dinosaur for this, but I really dislike when people don’t have their camera on. People may say I’m shy or I’m this that or whatever, but I think you lose so much of that connection if you can’t see the other person.
(27:29):
If you are completely remote with somebody and you’re never going to be in the same office, I think you really have to – I hate to say force, but very, very strongly encourage that you have those regular meetings and that the camera is on because otherwise there’s so much you’re missing without all the facial cues and whatever else is going on. But if you can see them, you’re like, okay, the way I’m talking to them, this approach, it’s not working, so we need to try something else. We need to pivot; we need to do whatever. But if you don’t have that feedback, you honestly don’t know what they’re thinking or how they’re reacting.
Ellery Furlong (27:55):
Yeah, I would say you need to have to consciously decide to reach out. You need to set up those meetings and follow through with them. When you’re all in the same office, you can walk around, and you can read the room and see when someone’s struggling or not doing well. But if you’re all remote, that’s something that involves having a conversation every day and reaching out. You can’t just rely on seeing it. You need to choose to talk regularly.
Mike Hrycyk (28:20):
Something outside of the manager relationship, Heather, I was thinking about: we all probably still do some mentorship that’s outside of our reports. People who’ve left us who still want to talk to you and need advice and stuff, and think that you have a bigger power to set ground rules, and both of you can have ground rules. And when we did some peer-based stuff at a company a couple times back, you were signing up to, I’m committing to this, this, this, and this. And one of those things for me, Heather, is you have to commit to being present, and that means having a camera on. And if you can’t commit to that, then I can’t commit to mentoring you. And maybe I would be able to accept it in certain circumstances without that, but I think that’s the baseline for me: human connection is a necessity in mentorship.
(29:04):
Okay. What’s one piece of advice you would give to someone becoming a manager next week, Ellery?
Ellery Furlong (29:13):
I would tell them they need to get to know their reports and they need to be consistent with them. Consistently meeting with them, consistently showing they’re a priority for them, and consistently showing them the type of behaviour that you expect from them. That would be my advice for them.
Heather Stapleton (29:30):
I think try to not necessarily go in with preconceived notions of what the role’s going to look like, because it’s probably going to surprise you and be ready to roll with that and shift. Also, be ready to maybe lean on your mentors and coaches more, right? Because you are new in the role and you’re going to need some help too. Maybe you felt pretty independent, but again, this is a shift. So, you’re going to have to lean on your people more. And also be prepared to make some mistakes because it’s going to happen. And then figure out what’s the best way – once you’ve made that mistake, how do you own it? So, don’t try to hide from it. Don’t try to pretend it didn’t happen. And have a plan to fix whatever the fallout was and move on.
Mike Hrycyk (30:14):
I think for me, the most important thing is to be the person you want your reports to be.
(30:20):
Alright. So, we’ve talked a lot about manager mentorship. That was the reason that we’re here. Let’s just carve off a little corner at the end here. Let’s talk a little bit about peer-based mentoring. Why is it important, and when is it a better choice than manager mentoring, Heather?
Heather Stapleton (30:37):
I mean, it’s going to depend on your organization and what your manager does and doesn’t know technically, but often when it’s a more technical problem, like you’re trying to learn a new tool or a new language or whatever it is, those are going to be the situations where a peer is probably going to be better suited to help you.
Mike Hrycyk (31:00):
And to extend the question a little, because I think peer-based mentorship is important, but I think another thing we haven’t really talked about that’s really important is vertical mentorship, but not in your direct staff. Having a mentor that isn’t your boss but is someone you might be willing to listen to, but more importantly, someone you might be willing to be more vulnerable with. And so, they can give you the advice that you need to have, but your manager- maybe you shouldn’t be telling them how nervous you are about something- and another mentor can hear that. Ellery, anything to add?
Ellery Furlong (31:31):
I think Heather’s point about peers maybe having more context for the technical issues you’re having is important. I think one potential downfall with peer-based mentorship can be that people are too nice and maybe there’s feedback you need to get. Your peer might not feel they’re in a position to give that feedback or just don’t want to go down that route. That’s another thing a new manager needs to be ready to do is to give bad news or to be able to handle difficult situations.
Mike Hrycyk (31:58):
I agree. And that segues nicely into the next one: should a manager be a friend? Should your peer be a friend? And I’m going to put this one first. I don’t think you should use a friend as your mentor because there’s a relationship. You’re not always going to be able to say the hard things, question the hard things, and be as vulnerable. At the same time, I don’t think you should avoid getting advice from your friends. Your friends should provide advice. Anything to add or dispute there, Ellery?
Ellery Furlong (32:25):
I think friends don’t usually have to provide negative performance reviews to friends. It’s never going to be a true friendship because it’s got an asterisk beside it.
Heather Stapleton (32:35):
Yeah, I mean, I would agree with that. And I think the short view of it is really you need multiple mentors. It’s a good idea to have several. Each one of them is going to bring something different to the conversation. And so, it’s good to have other points of view. So, your manager may be very well-meaning, and maybe they are working with you, and they’re maybe sending you down a path that they travelled. But if you talk to somebody else with a different set of experiences, it might open up your eyes to something else. And you can maybe discuss that with your manager too.
(33:06):
It’s to your own benefit, I think, to talk to as many different people as you can. And also as a manager, you shouldn’t be afraid to learn something from your mentee. You’ll have people who are younger, and you may sit there and say, okay, I’m the wise old mentor who’s lived all these years, got the gray hairs to prove it, but the new people coming in will have learned new things that you may not have heard of; there are new approaches. A different generation may see something completely differently than the way your generation saw it. So, I think you need to be open to that, as well.
Mike Hrycyk (33:35):
I hadn’t thought of that. Junior mentors because they see the world differently. I always thought everyone should be open to learning new things, but the idea of having a more junior mentor because they’re more open, I think that’s really interesting. Okay, couple last questions. How do you make sure people make time to be mentored, Ellery?
Ellery Furlong (33:50):
I mean, for starters, it’s booking those one-on-one meetings, booking time with folks, following through with those meetings, not cancelling them every week because something came up. It means if something did come up, you reschedule it and you follow through on it.
(34:04):
I think also when possible, it means being in the same office together. If it’s your team, locally, it’s being in the office with them, walking around, talking to them, listening about what they’re working on, and giving your ideas when they tell you about what they’re working on, and if they happen to be looking for advice. Yeah, it’s about making time.
Heather Stapleton (34:23):
Yep. Just exactly what Ellery said. You just got to put that time in their calendar, and it’s not negotiable. Life happens, and maybe for whatever reason, as Ellery said, that particular time doesn’t work. You’re like, okay, Wednesday morning doesn’t work. Thursday afternoon, this is our new time. And just essentially enforcing it.
Mike Hrycyk (34:41):
Another important part of it is when you have that one-on-one, people can jump right into tactical statusy stuff. Make sure that you’re pulling back, start with some small talk, have some other conversations so you can start sensing where the things are that need to have deeper discussions.
(34:57)
I think that, as managers, that becomes a lot easier for us because we can enforce the one-on-one, and the one-on-one is an important part of our week, and we all get that. That can be harder when you have a peer-based mentor. I don’t know where it came from. Maybe, Heather, this came from you. It’s called beer-based mentoring. So, you make a mentoring meeting more attractive. You say, “Well, let’s go to a pub and have a discussion. Let’s go have a coffee. Let’s go have an ice cream.” So, you don’t make it a big event, but you make it a positive experience so people want to do it.
(35:25):
Okay. Wrap-up question. Ellery is sitting around thinking, “You know what? My life would be better with a mentor.” How do you go out and get a mentor? You want a mentor tomorrow, so this is outside of the manager relationship. How do you get a mentor, Ellery?
Ellery Furlong (35:38):
You talk to them. So, if it’s in person, it can kind of maybe be a bit easier. Talk to them at the office. And maybe you even ask them, “Hey, I know you’ve gone through this before. Can you help me by meeting with me every so often?” Or, “Are you someone that I can reach out to when I have questions?” Otherwise, it can kind of be a bit more informal thing where it’s just someone you seek out and talk to them.
Mike Hrycyk(36:01):
Heather?
Heather Stapleton (36:03):
Well, I think what you have to do is, over time, build your network. Find opportunities just to talk to different people. And then through those conversations, you may say, “Look, I find this person really interesting, or I like the way that they approach tasks.” And then maybe approach them and say, “Hey, look, I’m looking for a mentor to help me with whatever the situation is. Would you be willing to spend time with me?” Or if there’s nobody that is coming to mind, just ask around your network, talk to different people you know. They may say, “Hey, I worked with this guy at my last company and he was really great, and I think he’d be willing to work with you and try to get an introduction.” So, it’s really building that network, asking that network, and looking and seeing who might be the right fit for you.
Mike Hrycyk (36:46):
Yeah. I think using the word mentor is really powerful, and it’s important. And the reason for that is most people are flattered, and they want to be able to give their wisdom, and they’re flattered to be asked. And there are ideas of what that relationship is, so they can have expectations and you can have expectations. It’s as simple as, and I say simple because I know it’s scary, but it’s as simple as asking. And I believe that 8 out of 10 people you ask will say yes. And one and a half of the leftover people – don’t cut anyone in half – they will have a reason why they can’t, because they’re already mentoring 10 people or they’ve got a new baby. And then half of a person out of those 10 will be a jerk. And that’s okay. You don’t want to be mentored by that jerk anyway. It’s not like you put a badge up and say, “I’m being mentored by this super important person, and that makes me important.” No, it’s the advice you’re getting that’s important.
(37:39):
So, this has been great. I think that mentorship conversations are really important. Any last thoughts you’d like to wrap up with, Ellery?
Ellery Furlong (37:49):
I would emphasize that building relationships are one of the most important parts of being a mentor. When people feel they can trust you and that your words actually mean something, they’re more likely to listen.
Heather Stapleton (38:02):
Be patient. Because everybody doesn’t go at the same pace. Some people take longer and make sure that, like I said, the listening again to make sure you understand what it is that they want and what they need. And don’t just make that assumption and jump in. And don’t always just be too quick to give them the answer. Sometimes make them come to the conclusion themselves.
Mike Hrycyk (38:22):
Absolutely. I was thinking as we were talking that the world has changed a lot. I think that it used to be that if you wanted help from someone, you would call them up. People don’t call each other up anymore. So, I think that what we have to be is aware that the call for help could come through many avenues these days, and just be open to all of those avenues, to understanding that the way they’re communicating with you may be a call for help.
(38:48):
Alright, I would like to thank our panel for joining us in a really great discussion about mentoring and mentorship and coaching. I would like to thank our listeners for tuning in. There’s nothing more valuable in IT than a good mentor, and I think that everyone should try to have multiple mentors.
(39:05):
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